its probably been beat to death but...

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bigpat123

New Member
Sep 10, 2007
5
0
0
#1
the contract, i just don't understand it. Where is the discount for the handset.. I was always told that the cell phone reduced rate was the reason for a contract but know there is no reduced rate. It is full price according to ATT and Apple. Is there a law or rule from the government stating this as a unfair businesss practice.
I could almost say ok if it was a one year and the phone with contract was $499 with the old price or $349.99 with the new pricing structure. But come on ATT and Apple are raping us. keeping us tied to att is unfair and what happens in a year when Apple decides tmobile is a better carrier or alltel or helio or any other company for that matter. as consumers we should set the businesss practices of these service oriented companies. They feel it is ok to offer us lackluster equipment on crappy service. Where in other parts of the workd they have phones that would shame the iPhone. Cell comp X decides instead of offering a phone that will work as a phone but improve their cust day theywant to offer a razor in pink in feb, then in march it will be blue then yellow then....when does it stop. We should stand up to this crap and end this. Make att or cingular, sprint, nextell, tmobile, alltell.. offer more then the pretty phone give us better capabilities in phones force the motorolas, lgs and nokias to give us their best and improve on that. Sorry i just started typing and could not stop.

I saw in one post the cost of service plus the phone comes to something like $2500 over 2 years. I agree this is allot of money but it is off by some. For many people they will have a cell phone and they will probably be around the $50 mark a month. So really you are spending only the cost of the data plan at $20 a month if you did not have one already. but either way there is a cost associated with the use of this phone. But i am wondering if in a year or so does the iPhone come out on tmo and become cheaper to operate and all those on att are stcuk for the 2 years if they don't want to cancell the contract...well we can always go to vermont and use the phone and wait for them to cancell us.


should we be tied to a 2 year contract....NO... and i am returning this phone. I just bought it and I thought prior to purchasing it that as an existing customer i would just be changing out phones and not incurr a 2 year prison sentence. thats how it worked when i had to upgrade to the htc cingular 8525 when i had a lemon of a phone (nokia 6682, which i loved)

sorry i had to rant and now I will run for president...........
 

petalmom

New Member
Silver
Jun 30, 2007
494
0
0
#3
I don't know where you've been for the last 2 months but the terms and conditions when purchasing an iPhone have been well documented and well discussed in numerous forums.

Fortunately you will be able to return it with only a 10% restocking fee (assuming that you have opened the box)
 

goblues38

Member
Bronze
Sep 7, 2007
49
0
6
#4
Dude...think about it.

How much have ipods been running the last few years. $300 -$400... I seriously don't know because I never had one. But I am close.

Now, how much have hihjer end phones cost from any wireless company. $200 -$300.

Look at the price of smart phones (pda's) $400 with coontract.

I have worked in the cellular racjet in the past. yes, in my day (early 90's) the carrier would pay a <$300 rebate> for a contract. So a $250 motorola flip phone became free with aactivation. That's how the racket worked / works. + % point kick backs to the agent (store) signing you up. Yes, Apple probbably gets 1-2% of our bill in residuals as a kick back....that's where the entire exclusive AT&T deal comes in.

Point being, you are getting a break. Full retail un activated would have to cost $700+. Again (ipod + phone = expensive) Thats why Apple set them up to be worthles without activation.

So for every activation with AT&T, Apple gets a couple hundred $ + residiuals for 2 years.

That's the general businesss model.

It's just a phone, enjoy it. Like the saying goes, if you have to ask how much it is, you probably couldnt afford it in the 1st place.
 

bigpat123

New Member
Sep 10, 2007
5
0
0
#5
I don't know where you've been for the last 2 months but the terms and conditions when purchasing an iPhone have been well documented and well discussed in numerous forums.

Fortunately you will be able to return it with only a 10% restocking fee (assuming that you have opened the box)


I wasn't intrested in the phone until the price drop. In the past i have paid allot for phones and have been disappointed with quality of the basic function making and receiving calls. I also bought the phone after working 32 hours straight and looked at the Apple site for the new ipod nano (was to be my fist ever ipod) I should of slept on it prior to impulse buying.
Its still unopened and i am really between a rock and a hard place my love of anything new and electronic or the fact i am stuck with a contract for another 2 years. I really hate cell phones but unfortunately i need one.
 

bigpat123

New Member
Sep 10, 2007
5
0
0
#6
WoW I need a drink after reading this...If you do become President Please Nuke this Post. :)

why that one candidate i saw on the tube wants to get rid of the fbi, cia, Education and every other facet of government we have..... all i want to do is abolish cell phone, internet and cable contracts. and get better phones then we have right now.

but....what we drinking i could use one too.
 

bigpat123

New Member
Sep 10, 2007
5
0
0
#7
Dude...think about it.

How much have ipods been running the last few years. $300 -$400... I seriously don't know because I never had one. But I am close.

Now, how much have hihjer end phones cost from any wireless company. $200 -$300.

Look at the price of smart phones (pda's) $400 with coontract.

I have worked in the cellular racjet in the past. yes, in my day (early 90's) the carrier would pay a <$300 rebate> for a contract. So a $250 motorola flip phone became free with aactivation. That's how the racket worked / works. + % point kick backs to the agent (store) signing you up. Yes, Apple probbably gets 1-2% of our bill in residuals as a kick back....that's where the entire exclusive AT&T deal comes in.

Point being, you are getting a break. Full retail un activated would have to cost $700+. Again (ipod + phone = expensive) Thats why Apple set them up to be worthles without activation.

So for every activation with AT&T, Apple gets a couple hundred $ + residiuals for 2 years.

That's the general businesss model.

It's just a phone, enjoy it. Like the saying goes, if you have to ask how much it is, you probably couldnt afford it in the 1st place.
I understand what you are saying but what i am saying is the contract is based on getting a reduced rate for the phone. I do know that when i bought my cingular/htc 8525 the phone itself would cost over $700 but it was offered with that price and with a price with contract. The iPhone is only offered with one price. So with their offering you see there is no pricing structure with or without a contract. So if all holds true then where is the discount for the extended contract. and if no discount then where is the price for the phone without contract.
And if i have purchased the phone from Ebay for example should they be able to hold me to a contract. Because when i purchased any other phone i would just slip my sim inside and i am off and running.
Also if the phone is exclusive to the att/cingular service then is it necessary to have the contract? it only works on their system then it would be useless on any others (the invisible contract) but then again there is always a way to unlock the phone.........
 

z28black98

Member
Bronze
Sep 10, 2007
239
0
16
Tulsa, OK
#8
I understand what you are saying but what i am saying is the contract is based on getting a reduced rate for the phone. I do know that when i bought my cingular/htc 8525 the phone itself would cost over $700 but it was offered with that price and with a price with contract. The iPhone is only offered with one price. So with their offering you see there is no pricing structure with or without a contract. So if all holds true then where is the discount for the extended contract. and if no discount then where is the price for the phone without contract.
And if i have purchased the phone from Ebay for example should they be able to hold me to a contract. Because when i purchased any other phone i would just slip my sim inside and i am off and running.
Also if the phone is exclusive to the att/cingular service then is it necessary to have the contract? it only works on their system then it would be useless on any others (the invisible contract) but then again there is always a way to unlock the phone.........
well its like this. Apple makes the phone and sets the price, ATT is the middle man by simply providing service. I don't see why you are complaining so much. A new treo is 399 with a 2yr contract, and so are some of the new blackberrys that are out right now. Any time you buy a new phone you usually end up signing a 2yr contract. Sorry you don't like 2yr contracts, but thats the nature of the businesss.

For example, If you don't want to be locked down on a mileage cap when you lease a new car, don't lease a car. There are certain rules and restrictions on everything, you either follow them and buy the product or you don't.
 

bigpat123

New Member
Sep 10, 2007
5
0
0
#9
well its like this. Apple makes the phone and sets the price, ATT is the middle man by simply providing service. I don't see why you are complaining so much. A new treo is 399 with a 2yr contract, and so are some of the new blackberrys that are out right now. Any time you buy a new phone you usually end up signing a 2yr contract. Sorry you don't like 2yr contracts, but thats the nature of the businesss.

For example, If you don't want to be locked down on a mileage cap when you lease a new car, don't lease a car. There are certain rules and restrictions on everything, you either follow them and buy the product or you don't.
My argument is that the cost of the phone is not deferred in any way, that being the #1 reason why there is a contract now take into effect that you can only use the full capabilities of the phone on ATT then why would they need a contract. Now the treo and blackberrys are capable to go from one gsm carrier to the nextprovided that it is a gsm/sim card phone&nbsp;so a contract for that is acceptable for the service provider because they are giving a reduced rate for the phone and they do not want to see that customer jump ship with a phone they discounted out because carrier b&nbsp;has cheaper service but a more expensive phone.
With your lease-car theory it is flawed in the sense that the reason for the lease is that 1. after the term you trade in the car you have for the latest and greatest and 2.is you don't need to worry about the maintenance.
Now with a cell phone contract after the manufacture warrentee is over you are screwed if it breaks, case in point the iPhone will not be able to utilize the phone protection plan. So after the year you will need to shell out another $300 or whatever they will be charging. the contract benefits the company not the customer in this case. So the correlation between the two is hard pressed to say the least. And if at the end of the 2 year contract it is my experience that att does not give you a great discount on the phones. It is the same price as in the stores sometimes a little more and they still try to charge you an activation fee(for you to switch the sim to your new phone) i am only questioning the contract and thats it. I have not used the iPhone i bought and i am not sure yet if i want to. I was hoping to stay out of contract so i have a better negotiating tool when i want something better or want to just cancel my cell completely (i cant wait for that day, but its far far away in a galaxy......)
 
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z28black98

Member
Bronze
Sep 10, 2007
239
0
16
Tulsa, OK
#10
My argument is that the cost of the phone is not deferred in any way, that being the #1 reason why there is a contract now take into effect that you can only use the full capabilities of the phone on ATT then why would they need a contract. Now the treo and blackberrys are capable to go from one gsm carrier to the nextprovided that it is a gsm/sim card phone&nbsp;so a contract for that is acceptable for the service provider because they are giving a reduced rate for the phone and they do not want to see that customer jump ship with a phone they discounted out because carrier b&nbsp;has cheaper service but a more expensive phone.
With your lease-car theory it is flawed in the sense that the reason for the lease is that 1. after the term you trade in the car you have for the latest and greatest and 2.is you don't need to worry about the maintenance.
Now with a cell phone contract after the manufacture warrentee is over you are screwed if it breaks, case in point the iPhone will not be able to utilize the phone protection plan. So after the year you will need to shell out another $300 or whatever they will be charging. the contract benefits the company not the customer in this case. So the correlation between the two is hard pressed to say the least. And if at the end of the 2 year contract it is my experience that att does not give you a great discount on the phones. It is the same price as in the stores sometimes a little more and they still try to charge you an activation fee(for you to switch the sim to your new phone) i am only questioning the contract and thats it. I have not used the iPhone i bought and i am not sure yet if i want to. I was hoping to stay out of contract so i have a better negotiating tool when i want something better or want to just cancel my cell completely (i cant wait for that day, but its far far away in a galaxy......)
Guess I misunderstood your first post. But from reading your above post, I can only assume Apple figured that eventually someone would unlock the phone to work on other networks, thereforee they wanted to lock customers in to a contract. Not to mention, I have been told my several diff Apple and AT&T employees that Apple is getting revenues as high as 10% of peoples bills. But anyways, once again assuming here, they didn't discount the iPhone is because "it was revolutionary, touch screen, only 1 button, visual voicemail, etc etc" Did I run out and get one for 599? No, but did they sucker me in at 399, you bet they did.

My parents are both employees of AT&T (have been for over 30yrs each) and we get free home phone lines, 20% off our cell bill, 30% off accessories, and 60% off handsets. The iPhone is the only phone you don't get a service discount or equipment discount on. (until oct 1, when AT&T employees get 10% off). But the reason I bought one was because i was within my 30 day exchange period and received some extra cash for my bday, so I decided to take the plunge. But I personally don't believe AT&T is to blame for not offering a discount on the phone once you sign a 2yr agreement because from what I have read Apple basically has them by the balls. Is it good for AT&T? you bet, they will have increased revenues because of this, is it good for Apple, of course. Time will tell if it will be a success though.

to your comment about wanting something better. If they do in fact come out with a new iPhone within the next yr, I purchased a policy from State Farm for 30 dollars that covers the phone from theft, accidental damage, etc, including 0 deductible. That beats the insurance AT&T actually offers because you pay 5 dollars a month plus minimum 50 dollar deductible which is over 110 dollars per yr. And you arent gauranteed to get a new phone, but rather a refurbished one sent to you from their exchange center in Dallas Texas.

There are pros and cons to everything, so I guess when its all said and done, you have to way them both and what fits your situation. The iPhone definitely isn't for everyone, thats for sure, in fact I am still not completely sold on it. I have never owned an ipod and find transferring music, movies, etc to be somewhat difficult. don't know if its my old age (25) or lack of intelligence (bs and MBA).
 
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DRabbit

New Member
Bronze
Jul 2, 2007
383
0
0
#11
should we be tied to a 2 year contract....NO... and i am returning this phone. I just bought it and I thought prior to purchasing it that as an existing customer i would just be changing out phones and not incurr a 2 year prison sentence.

Has NOTHING to do with the iPhone. I just bought my daughter a new phone for her birthday... a KRAZR... and THAT tied me into a new 2 year contract as well.
 

z28black98

Member
Bronze
Sep 10, 2007
239
0
16
Tulsa, OK
#12
Has NOTHING to do with the iPhone. I just bought my daughter a new phone for her birthday... a KRAZR... and THAT tied me into a new 2 year contract as well.
I think the point he is trying to convey is that you get "special pricing" when you buy a phone and agree to a 2yr contract whereas the iPhone has no "2yr contract price" and "no commitment price". If you walk into any att store, you will generally see two diff prices listed like the ones mentioned above. You got the "special 2yr price" since you agreed to those terms whereas you have to agree to a 2yr price for the iPhone with no "special 2yr price"
 

DRabbit

New Member
Bronze
Jul 2, 2007
383
0
0
#13
I think the point he is trying to convey is that you get "special pricing" when you buy a phone and agree to a 2yr contract whereas the iPhone has no "2yr contract price" and "no commitment price". If you walk into any att store, you will generally see two diff prices listed like the ones mentioned above. You got the "special 2yr price" since you agreed to those terms whereas you have to agree to a 2yr price for the iPhone with no "special 2yr price"
Special pricing doesn't apply to all phones... only the ones that they say they do. And not for nothin', but even with "special pricing" the KRAZR still cost $200. LOL
 

Tinman

Evangelist
Gold
Jul 16, 2007
4,334
183
63
Aridzona
#14
FYI: You will still be eligible for a free/reduced price phone from AT&T.

Why Apple didn't just let AT&T discount the iPhone is beyond me. But if you can get a discounted phone and ebay it, you can reduce the price of the iPhone.

I haven't done that yet, but just might.

If I don't take advantage of it, I have screen prints showing that I was eligible and (2) recorded calls with AT&T where they said I was eligible. If for whatever reason I terminate my contract with AT&T--and I was a new customer--I will fight the ETF. A "contract" needs to benefit both sides--and my contract with AT&T provides only them with a benefit. IANAL, but I'll fight it if it ever comes down to it (no problems with AT&T at the moment).



--
Mike
 

Prelector

Member
Bronze
Sep 6, 2007
151
1
18
#15
You're a bit off on the purpose of a 2year contract...

When you purchase a "normal" phone from a carrier, a lot of them offer to "assume" some of the price of the phone for you. In effect, a phone that would cost $400 retail, the carrier will pay $200, and you pay $200. To recoup this assumed cost, the carrier locks you into a contract for a set period of time. The idea, is they are amorizing that assumed cost over the term length of the contract.

Now, in the case of the iPhone, the carrier is STILL ASSUMING PART OF THE COST for you! Most people don't realize, but ATT pays a "Royalty" fee back to Apple for each phone that's activated (not sold, but activated). So, the 2 year contract is ATTs way of recouping that Royalty fee. In effect, instead of the carrier assuming part of the cost of the phone for you, the manufacturer (Apple) has assumed that cost, by selling the handset cheaper than they could.

That's the reasoning behind the 2year contract on ATTs part. You can't fault them really, the only money ATT is making is off the service itself. And since they are required to kick back to Apple for each iPhone activated, they are LOSING money up front on the deal. Apple is the one you have to yell at, since they are making a profit on the initial phone sale, then making more profit on the Royalty fee.
 

goblues38

Member
Bronze
Sep 7, 2007
49
0
6
#16
You are getting a discount.

Because iPhone requires a 2 year contract, that kick back from AT&T is built into price of the phone.

It's just marketting. AT&T new the iPhone was going to be a hot item, they offered Apple the best deal. So thats why its set up this way.

It's not a hard concept.

If Apple sold it without requiring a contract, you'd pay $700 at least (currently).

So relax...the discount is built in....if you want an iPhone you have to have AT&T. All other items are hacked at your own risk.
 

Prelector

Member
Bronze
Sep 6, 2007
151
1
18
#17
You are getting a discount.

Because iPhone requires a 2 year contract, that kick back from AT&T is built into price of the phone.

It's just marketting. AT&T new the iPhone was going to be a hot item, they offered Apple the best deal. So thats why its set up this way.

It's not a hard concept.

If Apple sold it without requiring a contract, you'd pay $700 at least (currently).

So relax...the discount is built in....if you want an iPhone you have to have AT&T. All other items are hacked at your own risk.
Sorry, but you're completely wrong on this.

Whether you buy the iPhone from Apple, or from ATT, the price is the same. There's no discount from the carrier. And the price of the kickback is NOT built into the price of the phone. Once again, you can buy the iPhone direct from Apple (ATT gets no cut of this purchase). However, you are required to activate via ATT. Once activation completes, ATT pays a royalty to Apple for the activation. At this point, ATT is paying money to Apple, but hasn't received dime one from you yet. So, they require the contract to recoup this royalty.

And I agree to the marketing/deal setup between ATT and Apple. Att struck the best deal they could to become the exclusive carrier.

"It's not a hard concept" indeed...
 

goblues38

Member
Bronze
Sep 7, 2007
49
0
6
#18
Whether you buy the iPhone from Apple, or from ATT, the price is the same. There's no discount from the carrier. And the price of the kickback is NOT built into the price of the phone. Once again, you can buy the iPhone direct from Apple (ATT gets no cut of this purchase). ...

Get a clue...there is too...it's built into the agreement between the 2 companies. that's why you have to activate with AT&T. Every activation AT&T pays Apple.

That's why Apple doent want people hacking the phone for other carriers. They don't get paid.....so they lose money on the equipment.

Again...if they didn't require the AT&T activation...you'd see the price several hundred dollar$ more.

It's set up this way because Apple is not a cell phone dealer...but they wanted to be able to sell there own product still.
 

Prelector

Member
Bronze
Sep 6, 2007
151
1
18
#19
Get a clue...there is too...it's built into the agreement between the 2 companies. that's why you have to activate with AT&T. Every activation AT&T pays Apple.

That's why Apple doent want people hacking the phone for other carriers. They don't get paid.....so they lose money on the equipment.

Again...if they didn't require the AT&T activation...you'd see the price several hundred dollar$ more.

It's set up this way because Apple is not a cell phone dealer...but they wanted to be able to sell there own product still.
First, try and keep it civil.

Second, I think we're arguing the same point. Yes, Apple discounts the phone before sale. Yes, ATT pays a Royalty to Apple for the activation. Yes, without this activation kickback, and without the 2year contract, the phone would cost more.