If you're in the Mofia the iPhone isn't for you.

[Norwest]

Unless you are a criminal, then you have nothing to worry about. This is old news by the way.

You might wanna revise that to say...

"Unless they THINK you are a criminal you have nothing to worry about."

I'm not quite sure why people think only criminals go to jail. ?

 

[VicSkimmr]

I dunno, but the government will certainly abuse any power they're given, and this one, quite frankly, scares me to death.

 

[tharmsen]

Perhaps some of you feel more secure if the government installs cameras on every street corner, listens to every phone conversation, tracks every one of your purchases or otherwise invades every aspect of your privacy... but for many of us it's not so comforting.

I read history. I know that there has NEVER been a government that was to be trusted blindly or completely. I've personally seen just how corrupt, inept, and dangerous government can be with my own eyes. Our government was created with checks and balances to try and defend against corruption or abuses of power, and the Patriot Act wipes away many of those protections. Why on earth would you support something like that?

I don't have anything to fear because right now I'm not a criminal. But with the stroke of a pen I could become one tomorrow.

 

[coop1701]

I use to work for a communication company. Most phones, when they're off, they're really on.

Example: All Motorola Razor's, and some other phones. Will actually turn themselves on for Events in their Calenders or Alarms. Even when off, they're running, but only silently. That's why when they hit a event they wake up.

The only true way to turn off a phone is to remove the battery.

Even Jack Bauer knows, He always makes people remove the batteries from their Cellphones on 24....?

 

[tharmsen]

Even Jack Bauer knows, He always makes people remove the batteries from their Cellphones on 24....?

Good point.

 

[VicSkimmr]

The only true way to turn off a phone is to remove the battery.

Even Jack Bauer knows, He always makes people remove the batteries from their Cellphones on 24....?

Chuck Norris, on the other hand, is above such trivial acts.

 

[jbaraga]

Greater men than you or I thought differently.

"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither" -- Ben Franklin

It's all about balance.

I don't think Ben Franklin anticipated Muslim extremists flying yet-to-be-invented airplanes into not-yet-built skyscrapers. Back in his day, the bad guys wore bright red coats and were very easy to spot.

If the average American knew of all the threats to their safety which were intercepted and neutralized thanks to the intelligence gathered by the government, I think they would be absolutely floored.

We live in a high tech world, and that technology can be just as harmful as it is helpful. The truth is that nobody's freedom to USE the technology is being threatened. But if a person uses that technology as a tool or with the intent to harm others, it's more likely they'll get found out.

I never really understood the whole "they're taking away our freedoms" argument. I actually have far more freedoms/methods of communicating now than I did 5 or 10 years ago. If I'm using those freedoms/methods legally, then I have nothing to worry about.

 

[tharmsen]

It's all about balance.

I don't think Ben Franklin anticipated Muslim extremists flying yet-to-be-invented airplanes into not-yet-built skyscrapers. Back in his day, the bad guys wore bright red coats and were very easy to spot.

If the average American knew of all the threats to their safety which were intercepted and neutralized thanks to the intelligence gathered by the government, I think they would be absolutely floored.

We live in a high tech world, and that technology can be just as harmful as it is helpful. The truth is that nobody's freedom to USE the technology is being threatened. But if a person uses that technology as a tool or with the intent to harm others, it's more likely they'll get found out.

I never really understood the whole "they're taking away our freedoms" argument. I actually have far more freedoms/methods of communicating now than I did 5 or 10 years ago. If I'm using those freedoms/methods legally, then I have nothing to worry about.

No one said the government can't conduct surveillance, I know I certainly didn't. Warrantless searches aren't necessary for a safe country. Removing the checks and balances that were put there to protect our nation from those who would abuse their power isn't a solution.

Planes and terrorists have nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter if it's a Boeing laden with passengers or a man armed with a musket, the net result is the same; there are people out there who want to do others harm. Ben Franklin's words ring just as true today as they did back then. Since he was a founding father, I put far more credence in his words than yours.

 

[Kamer]

If the average American knew of all the threats to their safety which were intercepted and neutralized thanks to the intelligence gathered by the government, I think they would be absolutely floored.

You really don't know much about history, do you? If you did, you would know the reason the CIA was created. If our government has stopped so many plots, how is it that they missed a plan that was in the works for probably a half decade or more to fly two jets into the world trade center buildings?

Go read a few history books and come back in a few years.

 

[Velodog2]

Wow, the level of discourse on this subject is waaaayyyyy above that on the bodybuilding bulletin board I frequent... Duh, go figure

Nice job arguing your points Tharmsen.

And the point about our phones always being 'on' is worth knowing also, although I don't know what I really plan to do about it. Still ... good to know.

 

[jbaraga]

You really don't know much about history, do you? If you did, you would know the reason the CIA was created. If our government has stopped so many plots, how is it that they missed a plan that was in the works for probably a half decade or more to fly two jets into the world trade center buildings?

Go read a few history books and come back in a few years.

I fail to see your point re: the founding of the CIA. It's common knowledge why the Agency was created. To say it hasn't been successful because of one successfuly executed plot is pretty cavalier of you.

Forgive the analogy, but that's like blaming an ace pitcher for giving up a home run.

I don't see the point of arguing. My main concern was that many people claim their personal freedoms are being taken away, and it simply isn't true. The fact that a government knows what a person is doing is far different from that government preventing them from doing it. People need to think for themselves before they go off mindlessly repeating the latest propaganda.

 

[jbaraga]

And the point about our phones always being 'on' is worth knowing also, although I don't know what I really plan to do about it. Still ... good to know.

You could always try putting a tinfoil hat on your iPhone.

There are some who would argue that such measures have protected them from having their minds read by invasive signals from government satellites.

It's certainly worth a try.

 

[Kamer]

To say it hasn't been successful because of one successfuly executed plot is pretty cavalier of you.

That's really all I needed to see. You really don't know much about history.

 

[lymn]

It really creeps me out that you guys seem pretty fine with the government being able to tap into your private lives at any time, with out you knowing about it... Something about that just is not kosher with me.

Guess you could just muffle the mic when you're not using the phone... or leave it by a speaker (most the time you can hear the GSM signal when a signal is being transmitted.)

 

[jbaraga]

That's really all I needed to see. You really don't know much about history.

Thanks, professor.

As someone who spends all day, every day working with anti-counterfeiting and asset tracking technology, perhaps I have a deeper appreciation than most for the capabilities (and successes) of our governmental agencies and the information/capabilities they provide. I'm gainfully employed because there are a lot of bad people out there doing a lot of bad things which are harmful to our economy and our way of life, and there are many good people who are very interested in finding ways to curtail their activities. There are things the government can do and know which private citizens and private organizations cannot. The results they are able to help generate, and the methods by which they achieve those results are impressive to say the least. I was never a fan of government intelligence and surveillance until I saw firsthand the good they brought about.

You can think that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about. But you'd be absolutely, positively, 100% wrong.

 

[Velodog2]

Thanks, professor.

I'm gainfully employed because there are a lot of bad people out there doing a lot of bad things which are harmful to our economy and our way of life,

Ah, the vested interest.

 

[tharmsen]

I was going to say, about the only people who support the Patriot Act are;

1) People deathly loyal to the Bush administration
2) People who are in law enforcement
3) People who are employed by a government agency

I think most reasonable people are all for the FBI, CIA and other alphabet soup agencies being able to track bad guys and to thwart terror plots. They have always had this ability, they didn't need the Patriot Act.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be voilated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Warrantless searches aren't necessary. We don't need to shred our Bill of Rights to catch bad guys. Why do you want warrantless searches jbaraga?

Yes, the Patriot Act does trample our Constitutional Rights, read the 4th Amendment I've quoted above. I can't believe any American would be so willing, and motivated only by fear, to surrender the very rights our ancestors fought and died to grant us. It turns my stomach to think there are people out there who would so frivolously, and without a second thought, shred our Constitutionally protected rights. And what for? Because they're scared the boogie man will get them if they don't lay down 200 year old rights?

We made it 200 years without needing to shred our Constitution... I don't think a terror attack in 2001 is justification for doing it now.

 

[jbaraga]

Ah, the vested interest.

Indeed.

But it's the same vested interest that keeps counterfeit drugs out of your child's bloodstream, counterfeit currency out of your pocket, counterfeit brake pads off your car, counterfeit coffee out of the machine at work, counterfeit hairspray off your girlfriend's head.

You wouldn't believe the kinds of things people counterfeit, nor would you believe the kinds of crap raw materials they use to make them. The stuff that hits the news is only scratching the surface.

 

[tharmsen]

I'm gainfully employed because there are a lot of bad people out there doing a lot of bad things which are harmful to our economy and our way of life, and there are many good people who are very interested in finding ways to curtail their activities.

Are you suggesting that before Sept 11, 2001 there weren't bad people trying to break the law or otherwise hurt people? Did we need the Patriot Act during the Mexican American war? The American Indian wars? WWI or WWII? Vietnam? Korea? During the Cold War?

The answer is "no", and we don't need it now.

 

[tharmsen]

Indeed.

But it's the same vested interest that keeps counterfeit drugs out of your child's bloodstream, counterfeit currency out of your pocket, counterfeit brake pads off your car, counterfeit coffee out of the machine at work, counterfeit hairspray off your girlfriend's head.

You wouldn't believe the kinds of things people counterfeit, nor would you believe the kinds of crap raw materials they use to make them. The stuff that hits the news is only scratching the surface.

So you're justifying tapping my phone without a warrant, searching my home without a warrant, tracking my purchases without a warrant, etc. by claiming it will help keep counterfeit hairspray out of my hair?

I'll take my chances, thanks. Now give me my 4th Amendment back.