If you're in the Mofia the iPhone isn't for you.

[burningjoe]

"Big Brother in his quite car coming near"

If any one in the US has any dillusions that you are not monitored daily in one fashion or another...is simply just a fool. Ask Geronimo Pratt or more recently Peter Limone and Joseph Salvati. Google them if you don't know who they are and what happened to them.

Here is a question for you...are you a Citizen or a citizen? (note the capital "C" and lower case "c"). Google it...and enjoy...chances are that unless you were a land owner (or decendant) during the signing of the original US documents....you have never been really "free"....you have just been granted permission to have Freedoms.

Did you know that the "Patriot" Act has in it that no person or persons (calss action) can bring a case against Drug Companies..specifically for Immunization shots? thimerosal anyone? Funny how Mercury Posioning is so similar to Autism...look it up.

 

[jbaraga]

So you're justifying tapping my phone without a warrant, searching my home without a warrant, tracking my purchases without a warrant, etc. by claiming it will help keep counterfeit hairspray out of my hair?

I'll take my chances, thanks. Now give me my 4th Amendment back.

Good grief...get off it, man. You're putting words in my mouth and turning this into something completely different than it was to begin with.

The only point I've been trying to make is that surveillance is not the same thing as TAKING AWAY PERSONAL FREEDOMS as some claim. That's it. I haven't taken the debate or rhetoric any further than that. Initially you claimed you weren't saying that, and now you seem to be back on the other side. Just because I'm not an alarmist or conspiracy theorist doesn't mean I want some guy in a black SUV following me around. But as I said at the very beginning of my participation in this thread, everything in balance. People who think our freedoms are being taken need to hop on a plane and go somewhere where people's actions really are limited. Gives you a whole new perspective.

Oh, and you should had seen the heads of the people who used counterfeit hairspray. Ouch.

 

[tharmsen]

Oh, and you should had seen the heads of the people who used counterfeit hairspray. Ouch.

Pictures man, PICTURES!

 

[jbaraga]

Are you suggesting that before Sept 11, 2001 there weren't bad people trying to break the law or otherwise hurt people? Did we need the Patriot Act during the Mexican American war? The American Indian wars? WWI or WWII? Vietnam? Korea? During the Cold War?

The answer is "no", and we don't need it now.

You don't seriously believe that government wasn't monitoring people EXTENSIVELY before the Patriot Act? The primary difference between then and now is that now it has a catchy name and the public is aware of it.

Come on, man. I KNOW you're smarter than that just based on what I've read from you on these forums.

Four years ago when everyone was pro-America and scared to death of another attack, it seemed like a good idea. Now it's looking like a good marketing idea gone bad. At this point the government is probably wishing they would have just kept covert activities covert and let the results do the talking for them. Sure, they have a little more power than before, but I still maintain that the primary difference between pre and post-9/11 America is that the public is now more aware of the governments capabilities, not necessarily that the government's powers are radically different.

 

[Norwest]

The key word here is oversight.

What the current administration is doing they are doing without oversight which is in direct voilation of our constitution. No branch of government has the right to operate without being subject to oversight by another.

It's not *what* they do that is the main problem but *how* they do it. With proper oversight by the juidicial or legislative branches Bush and his boys should be free to surveil and stop terrorism without trampling innocent civilians rights.

Without that oversight they're free to do whatever they want... like now. That is a huge problem. They do things in the dark and then dodge oversight when it comes out, like the secret spying program.

Sure, they have a little more power than before, but I still maintain that the primary difference between pre and post-9/11 America is that the public is now more aware of the governments capabilities, not necessarily that the government's powers are radically different.

I disagree. Cheney's VP powers are unprecedented. He is the first VP with executive powers over classified information. He uses those powers to hide activities of third parties as it relates to oil rights in Iraq.

He is the first VP that can unilaterally make something classified without the president's approval, and designate that power to others.

Then he turns around and suggests he's not part of the executive branch and does not have to comply with presidential orders regarding classified information.

That should scare people. The government's powers are radically different. Unconstitutionally so I think.

 

[tharmsen]

You don't seriously believe that government wasn't monitoring people EXTENSIVELY before the Patriot Act? The primary difference between then and now is that now it has a catchy name and the public is aware of it.

I never said they didn't "monitor" people before the Patriot Act. Before the Patriot Act for them to legally do it they needed a warrant (i.e. judges signature). Don't pretend I'm stupid or that past injustices somehow justify the current.

Again, why do you support warrantless searches? Do you not believe the 4th Amendment is a needed protection?

 

[seb481]

Again, why do you support warrantless searches? Do you not believe the 4th Amendment is a needed protection?

I am with you on this one bro! I am not American (although I live here) but I think the government is going WAY too far. Terrorism is now a pathetic excuse for shrinkering people's right and privacy. I feel like it's 1984 (the book from G. Orwell).

 

[Velodog2]

I live quite near dc and have met many people in various govt agencies as well as the military whose paranoia is absolutely breathtaking. And I love them for existing as they are and expending huge amounts of energy thinking about how someone could get counterfeit hairspray, or maybe a nuclear bomb, into this country so that I can spend energy doing the things that I like to do. But like any good attack dog, they need to be kept on a very short leash. The founding fathers are considered brilliant because of the checks and balances they devised. The patriot act lengthens that leash way too much, and I don't think anyone in the current admistration has been or will be described as brilliant. Nothing at all in the fundamental nature of man and his tendency to abuse power has changed in the last 200 years. I continue to prefer my attack dogs on short leashes.

 

[Velodog2]

Anyway, to be a little more focused... Yes, please explain exactly why warrants should no longer be required? What has changed so radically that they are no longer needed? They are quick and easy to obtain, assuming of course the search is justified. I've heard that simple question asked in congressional hearings, without a very satisfying answer from that slimeball we have for an AG right now.

 

[lymn]

Warrants are no longer required, because the Patriot Act made it so they can classify just about anything as "Terrorist" activity with out being asked why. Mater of fact if you ask why, there is a good chance you will be detained (with out due process of law) for a prolonged period of time.

The whole system is spinning around brim of the sink getting ready to go down the drain...

What did we fight all those world wars over? To stop the very thing that we are becoming from spreading... ugg...

Any one want to start an Island nation? ;p

 

[webb]

I thought the Patriot Act was intended to thwart terrorism... now it's being used as an excuse to invade the privacy of American citizens not involved with terrorism... nifty. I didn't see that coming...

Like I said, its only a matter of time before the the American people have had enough and revolt. I think I may see it in my lifetime....I'm 27.


FW

 

[adseguy]

Great discussion guys! Don't worry too much about people taking what you said the wrong way...it's just the way the internet forums work. A lot of the way humans talk is based on the way it's presented vocally (soft, harsh, sarcastic, etc) Obviously very hard to tell on the internet.

anyway.... I like this topic because I sorta agree with jbaraga that if you are not breaking the law who cares what the government is LOOKING AT (key word there). I do still believe in the people being able to rise up and rebel against their government. So the question would be, can we still successfuly overthrow the government when they get out of control as the founding fathers wanted it to be (hence why we still have that stupid bearing of arms amendment).

I look at a country like France, and please don't be stereotypical, where they constantly rebel against their government. The government is actually afraid of the people, the way it should be. It seems more like we are afraid of the government? No?

 

[webb]

Bulls**t! The government should fear the people, not the other way around!

Bush is by far the worst president I have seen and I think most who frequent this forum have seen...he has basically wiped his @$$ with our constitution. Never, EVER give up a freedom for safety no matter what!

And tharmsen isn't saying we should do away with warranted searches, he is talking about doing away with the unjustified, dime a dozen, "warrantless" searches that the government simply hands out by the ton to who ever has a hand out.

Some day, the masses of this land will wake up and see what injustices this corrupt government have done to us. We were once a great country, idolized by many others. Now, we are nothing but perceived trouble makers and no one wants to attach their wagon to our star (except Britain but I suspect its because they feel pressured to do so). I have no doubt that the government can instill fear in the hearts of men, but when those men have had enough, I would figure no amount of propaganda, lies or threats would put an end to a revolt until everyone in the government responsible answered with their lives. Far fetched? Talking crazy?

It's easier to do than you realize but people are scared to speak their true thoughts. Every great superpower, empire, government have slipped and fallen from their lofty perchs. I expect that the United States and their imperialistic views will be the next to fall.


Don't bash me because I speak whats on my mind and do not fall in line with the masses.


FW

 

[adseguy]

Bulls**t! The government should fear the people, not the other way around!

That's what I said

Don't bash me because I speak whats on my mind

Ahh, but people will and that's what is GOOD about America.

 

[ciaran00]

It's all about balance.

I don't think Ben Franklin anticipated Muslim extremists flying yet-to-be-invented airplanes into not-yet-built skyscrapers. Back in his day, the bad guys wore bright red coats and were very easy to spot.

If the average American knew of all the threats to their safety which were intercepted and neutralized thanks to the intelligence gathered by the government, I think they would be absolutely floored.

We live in a high tech world, and that technology can be just as harmful as it is helpful. The truth is that nobody's freedom to USE the technology is being threatened. But if a person uses that technology as a tool or with the intent to harm others, it's more likely they'll get found out.

I never really understood the whole "they're taking away our freedoms" argument. I actually have far more freedoms/methods of communicating now than I did 5 or 10 years ago. If I'm using those freedoms/methods legally, then I have nothing to worry about.

Yeah, it floors me to think our great government armed the guy who came up with the plane idea. I am happy that I am being protected.

 

[edw1nk]

cant you just take out the sim card?

 

[VicSkimmr]

What jbaraga is getting at is that the government has always conducted these warrantless searches. The only difference between then and now is that we are aware of it, which doesn't make it any less unconstitutional. And I can agree that on the surface, having the government listening in on your cell-phone conversations or reading your private emails isn't harmful... until they find something that they feel is just cause for arrest.

We have an easy way to remedy this situation... through impeachment. The problem is that we don't have enough free-thinkers in this country that realize whats going on. Luckily we won't have to deal with them for much longer anyway, and hopefully by next year we'll have a competent president (who's name doesn't end with linton) who will dump the Patriot Act in the garbage where it deserves to be.

 

[sammyb]

My only question is, if the government is listening, is that what is using up all my minutes? They should at least pay my cell bill.

 

[webb]

What jbaraga is getting at is that the government has always conducted these warrantless searches. The only difference between then and now is that we are aware of it, which doesn't make it any less unconstitutional. And I can agree that on the surface, having the government listening in on your cell-phone conversations or reading your private emails isn't harmful... until they find something that they feel is just cause for arrest.

We have an easy way to remedy this situation... through impeachment. The problem is that we don't have enough free-thinkers in this country that realize whats going on. Luckily we won't have to deal with them for much longer anyway, and hopefully by next year we'll have a competent president (who's name doesn't end with linton) who will dump the Patriot Act in the garbage where it deserves to be.

RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT! Even if he isn't on the ballot, I am going to write him in! Google the mans name and read about him. He is the closest thing to a founding father as we will ever get.

 

[jbaraga]

What jbaraga is getting at is that the government has always conducted these warrantless searches. The only difference between then and now is that we are aware of it, which doesn't make it any less unconstitutional. And I can agree that on the surface, having the government listening in on your cell-phone conversations or reading your private emails isn't harmful... until they find something that they feel is just cause for arrest.

We have an easy way to remedy this situation... through impeachment. The problem is that we don't have enough free-thinkers in this country that realize whats going on. Luckily we won't have to deal with them for much longer anyway, and hopefully by next year we'll have a competent president (who's name doesn't end with linton) who will dump the Patriot Act in the garbage where it deserves to be.

THANK YOU. Finally someone who understands the only real point I've been trying to make, and who is willing to admit it's true.

I'm not trying to debate any political or legal points here. I'm just saying that fundamentally, the government did not gain some new, magical powers through the Patriot Act. The fact that their powers are better publicized does not mean the government is now suddenly taking away people's freedoms. It's just that people are now more aware of the what's going on.

And concerning your comments about the current administration, allow me to play devil's advocate...keeping in mind that hindsight is 20/20, can you imagine the public outcry if the government had decided to remain covert in its handling of those suspected of terrorism? Everyone would have been in a panic and complaining that the government wasn't doing enough to protect them. The alternative was to publicize the fact that the government would be keeping a close eye on those who could reasonably represent a threat to the security of American citizens and take the appropriate action when threats were identified. Does anyone honestly believe that they WOULDN'T have done that, regardless of whether or not they decided to declare it publicly? C'mon. There have been portions of the government operating covertly under every administration in modern times. Democrat. Republican. Whatever. It just all happened to come to a head more dramatically during the Bush administration.

I agree with some of things Dennis Miller has said about this issue...

"...I’m for George Bush right now, and guess what, if Hillary Clinton’s our next president I’m for her. We’re in a bad bind right now. We have to get behind our guy. We got to stop all this fighting."

and about the Patriot Act...

"When Woodward and Bernstein looked into Howard Hunt’s library records it was thought to be one of the seminal moments of American democracy. It’s thought to be a benchmark moment of what this country’s about. So, listen. If we want to check Ramney al-Kaboom because he took 4 bomb cook books out in a month all of the sudden it’s wrong. We’ve got to stop the acrimony."